Friday, August 24, 2007

Spare the rod, spoil the child?

If you are familiar with the phrase, "Spare the rod, spoil the child," you might be under the impression that it comes from The Bible, more specifically, the book of Proverbs. Unfortunately (or from my point of view, I suppose it is very fortunate), it actually comes from a satirical poem, Hudibras, written by Samuel Butler in the 1600s. Go ahead and take a look at Part II Canto I, around line 840. Did you find it? It probably wasn't what you expected to read in connection to disciplining a child, was it?

I find it interesting that a line from a poem that is discussing spanking in the context of a sexual relationship is linked with physical discipline for a child. Just a few lines down Butler says,

Why may not whipping have as good
A grace, perform'd in time and mood,
With comely movement, and by art,
Raise passion in a lady's heart?
It is an easier way to make 855
Love by, than that which many take.
Who would not rather suffer whipping,
Than swallow toasts of bits of ribbon?
Make wicked verses, treats, and faces,
And spell names over with beer-glasses 860
Be under vows to hang and die
Love's sacrifice, and all a lie?
Yes, of course, makes total sense right? I mean, who wants to deal with all that romantic crap, flowers and chocolate and whispering sweet nothings when you can just spank your partner on the behind and get on with the "love-making". And from there it is easy to make the leap across the Grand Canyon and infer that Butler (who is right up there with Paul, maybe even Jesus) means we should beat our children on the backside with a rod or they will be spoiled brats.

Or maybe not.

The book of Proverbs does make several references to a "rod" in connection with disciplining a child. The one most people probably think they are quoting when they say, "Spare the rod, spoil the child," is Proverbs 13:24, "He who spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is careful to discipline him."

So what's the difference? The Bible still tells us to spank, right? Well, context is always important. I mean honestly, it makes you look stupid to go around quoting a poem about sexual spanking when you are talking about discipline for a child (not to mention that it is perverted to relate that to a child). It is also important to actually go to the Bible instead of just assuming that some well known phrase is a part of the inspired text (and thus putting Butler right up there with Paul or the other Biblical authors).

But most importantly, if we could actually get people to read the Bible and try to figure out what it means instead of just spouting off some old phrase when they don't even know the truth about its origins, then people might begin to see that spanking your child is not a commandment or part of being a good Christian parents.

I'm going to try and keep this short since there are several great resources out there that discuss the meaning of the "rod" as it is used in Proverbs and other books in the Old Testament. But I will say that the Hebrew word used here is "shebet", which refers to a large walking staff held by the head of a family, the shepherd’s crook, or the king’s scepter. It is a symbol of authority, the staff used to guide sheep who are straying away from the flock, and the scepter that the king held out to Esther to allow her to come into his presence. It is the same rod that David refers to in Psalm 23, probably the most famous Psalm, when he says, "Your rod and Your staff, they comfort me."

To make it simple, I see several basic options for interpreting the handful of verses in Proverbs that refer to a rod in connection with the discipline of a child. We could take these verses literally and assume that this is a command for all of God's people at all times to hit their children as a form of discipline. Or, we could say that these verses are descriptive of how King Solomon (the writer of Proverbs) disciplined his own children and are not prescriptive--meaning that God didn't intend for us to take these verses to mean that we must discipline our children in that particular way. The other option is that the rod of discipline is actually figurative. It could refer to the authority we have as parents and instead of meaning that we must strike our children with a physical rod, we should use our authority to carefully guide, teach, and discipline our children (and yes, you can discipline without physical punishment).

Personally, I think the only one that makes any sense is the last option. It is only in that scenario that it makes any sense that the rod of discipline is the same rod that comforts the Psalmist. I think very few children would find being struck with a rod a comforting experience. However, carefully guiding and teaching our children throughout their life can impart both discipline, correction, and comfort. Also, if we take these verses literally then why don't parents go all the way and use a literal rod (as in a large staff like one that a shepherd would use, not a small ruler, flexible nylon rod/whip, or a 1/4" piece of plumbing supply line--and yes, those are all objects that certain Christian groups/writers have advocated as appropriate objects for administering spankings)? I'm guessing that most parents would probably stop spanking if they were told that had to use a 5-6' walking stick to strike their child's backside (or a golden scepter like the king had, because really, who can afford a golden rod just for spankings?). Also, the Old Testament also tells us that if we have a rebellious son who will not listen, the father and mother should bring him before the elders of the city to be stoned to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21), but I don't see many Christians dragging their children out in the street in order to follow this part of the Bible.

For more information about the meaning of the word "shebet" and a discussion of the other verses in Proverbs that refer to a rod of discipline, check out Arms of Love Family Fellowship.

Here is an article from Theology Today (from 1981, too bad this didn't catch on 25 years ago) that discusses spanking.

Here is an article from the Boston Globe about a woman who tried to put a stop to the production and sale of "The Rod", a flexible whipping stick created for the purpose of training children. Apparently the pressure put on those that manufacture tools for physical discipline has been enough to stop the manufacturing of several of them, for the time being at least (The Rod, The Wee Wacker). There are others that are still in production, but I hesitate to link to them for fear that I will send business their way. There are also numerous Christian groups and authors that advocate other objects be used for administering spankings. For example, The Pearls recommend using a 1/4" piece of plumber's supply line and Gary Ezzo (yes, the same one that wrote the infamous Babywise) suggests using a large glue stick.

Many of these groups advocate using a flexible instrument because they are less likely to leave marks. I find that attitude particularly alarming. Finding an object that can hurt without leaving bruises doesn't make it safe, and it's far too close to the thought process behind many cases of domestic violence (hitting your wife in places where no one will see the bruises, or parts of the body where bruises are less likely to form).

One reason many groups say a parent should use a "neutral object" when administering a spanking is that hands are for loving and we don't want to confuse our children because they "can develop a pattern of flinching when you make an unexpected move" (from Dr. Dobson himself). This raises several concerns with me. First, how often is your child being spanked if they have become scared and flinch when you happen to raise your hand or make an "unexpected move"? I never want my children to fear me in that way, as if they expect me to hurt them. Also, this explanation assumes that our children are too stupid to figure out the connection between the parent, a hand, the object in the hand, and the pain when the object hits the flesh. Even a very young child can understand that the parent is indeed the one doing the hurting because they are the one holding the painful object. It might keep them from flinching every time you move your arm, but they'll still know that you are the one that hit them.

I am against spanking in all forms for a variety of reasons (including that I don't think it is very effective and there are so many alternatives out there that it is a poor choice in my opinion, and also because I don't advocate hitting children in any shape or form), but I am very much concerned about using a "neutral object" to spank a child. It is far more difficult to judge how much force you should use or are using when you are swinging another object, especially if your frustration or anger is clouding your judgment (and hopefully all parents would agree that you should never never spank in anger, but the truth is that this happens quite frequently).

I have one last warning for anyone who has had someone recommend Michael and Debi Pearl's book, To Train Up a Child, or No Great Joy ministry to them. I had heard of the Pearls before, and only knew that they were highly controversial. A few weeks ago someone recommended their book to me, along with "The Rod" that was mentioned several times in this post. I was too stunned to really say anything, but when I got home I began researching The Pearls. They not only recommend using a flexible instrument like the plumber's supply line to hit a child, but talk about using a rod to spank their own children beginning as young as 4 months. Their book is basically a manual that teaches you how to train a child in the same way you train an animal (although more harshly than many dog trainers would be in my opinion). There is a lot more I could say about this book (the text is online but I don't want to link to it), but this discussion is quite long already. I'll just say that this couple not only advocates some truly reprehensible ways to treat our children, but also teaches parents to view their children in ways that I do not find in agreement with how Jesus viewed children (let the little children come unto me, reminding his followers to become like children in several ways, etc). Here is an article at Salon that goes over some of the more specific concerns with their teachings.

Switching gears...

If you are a Christian woman who is looking for ways to parents gently or want to learn more about gentle grace-based discipline, Gentle Christian Mothers is a great site with articles and a forum that can help you learn more about alternative ways to parent and discipline.

For anyone, Christian or not, who wants to learn more about alternative philosophies of discipline and parenting, I recommend the following books:



I've also just started Grace-Based Parenting (link to the right under what I am currently reading), but I'll say more about that when I'm done with it.

16 comments:

Mr. & Mrs. Commish said...

"He who spares the rod...."

While I understand your point that rod is used elsewhere in the Old Testament to merely mean authority or guidance, you are limiting the language to think that a word can only have one meaning. Its too late for me to spend the appropriate time researching any further, to make an argument for how rod is being used here, however, I think it is way too simplistic to pick one particular verse where it is used one way and assume it must be used the same way here. I'm not sure that authority would even make sense in this context, as this is not poetry.

Anyway, you make very good points about the whole idea of flexible instruments or whatever, never heard those recommendations before, but I totally agree that it is a scary sort of logic to use something that will get the maximum hurt with the minimum "evidence". Also an excellent point about disciplining in anger. I would say this applies even beyond physical punishment. It is way too easy for us to yell and react without thinking at our children...punishment whether or spanking or anything else, should be done in love not anger, as this will truly give a chance to teach our children, which should be the goal in punishment anyway.

~Mr. Commish

Annie said...

Oh, I agree that there is much more to the whole discussion of the word "rod". I chose not too focus too much of the post on that because it would take so much time to go over it all. One thing I noticed in what study I did on the word shebet is that when it is used in different instances to mean different things like a shepherd's staff, a king's scepter, etc., they all have a tone of authority to them. There are other places it is used in different ways like for the "rod of Jesse" and also passages where it is specifically used to describe using a literal shebet to strike someone, as in Ex21:20ff where instructions are given about how to strike a servant. That is one reason why I find a literal interpretation of the Proverb's rod verses so troubling. If we are talking about a literal shebet like it was used in Exodus, we are talking about striking and beating our children with a large rod that can cause the death of an adult (that is specifically mentioned in the Ex passage).These links have a much more thorough discussion of shebet and its use in several passages in Proverbs: http://aolff.com/?page_id=9
http://aolff.com/?page_id=93

Also, Proverbs may not be a book of poetry, but it is full of all kinds of other examples of figurative language. Many books of the bible contain poetic elements even if they aren't classified as a book of poetry, so I think it is possible for the author of wisdom literature such as Proverbs to use shebet in a symbolic or figurative way.

Ultimately, for myself, even if these verses were to be understood literally as descriptions of striking children with a physical literal rod for discipline, I wouldn't take them as prescriptive, especially for all people at all times.

For example, just a few verses later in Pr 14:1 it says, "The wise woman builds her house, but the foolish tears it down with her own hands." I don't think this means that women must build their own houses or that the foolish woman he is talking about here literally tore down her house with her bare physical hands. In 14:3 it says, "In the mouth of the foolish is a rod for his back, but the lips of the wise will protect them." In that case, surely he does not mean the fool has a literal rod in his mouth that he will use on his back! Also, a wise man doesn't use his lips as a literal shield to protect himself from other people. I think this Proverb is saying that if you are foolish with your words you are going to wind up sticking your foot in your mouth (to use a more modern phrase), and the wise man will consider his words before speaking and protect himself from being ridiculed or attacked for saying something foolish.

Lyle said...

"Its too late for me to spend the appropriate time researching any further, to make an argument for how rod is being used here, however, I think it is way too simplistic to pick one particular verse where it is used one way and assume it must be used the same way here."

Basically, how I read this is, "I don't think you looked into this, and I haven't either, but you're wrong."

Soliloquy said...

Great commentary!

Lyle, I agree with you 100%. Mr. Commish has the simplistic commentary here.

From the discussions I have had with learned Biblical scholars, children under the age of 5 were not customarily called children, they were called nurslings. So even if you believe the Bible says we are to hit children, it would not apply to children under the age of 5.

Furthermore, there are plenty of things described in the OT that I would not consider doing today. For one example, the OT is very clear that women caught in the act of adultery are to be stoned to death. Yet no one in the church is advocating that today. Yet, some think we are to hit little toddlers rather than model Christ's love to them.

What does it say about us if we think the best way to teach someone is to hit them? Children are learning how to behave and will do what they see us do.

Mr. & Mrs. Commish said...

It was late when I wrote, so it is clear I did not express myself clearly. My concern is the seeming "explaining away" of a verse that obviously has some meaning. Do I think that this verse could have rod = discipline (authority seemed weak to me, but rereading the post I did see that you posited discipline as a possibility). Sure, no problem there, but then how is that disipline manifest? This verse seems to say nothing on the subject. Even if it is figurative in nature, it is clearly not a prohibition against "spanking". Which after reading the post I got the impression that the Bible must say that spanking is wrong. Maybe I just misread the post.

Also, to put forward that spanking is wrong is fine, but like I said this verse means something, so what discipline shall we show. Not saying that there aren't other possibilities, but just as you help us with breastfeeding tips, share some discipline tips for the just mobile 2 years old who needs discipline. Don't tear down spanking and leave nothing in the void.

Anyway, just trying to make sure that we all think this whole thing over carefully. Not trying to attack, and sorry if my post came across that way, but some of the responses seemed awful harsh to me. If we can try to keep this on a level of uplifting I would appreciate it, much in line with the post that you had in the last month or so about disagreements on the Bible.

Lyle said...

"Don't tear down spanking and leave nothing in the void."

from Annie's original post:
"If you are a Christian woman who is looking for ways to parents gently or want to learn more about gentle grace-based discipline, Gentle Christian Mothers is a great site with articles and a forum that can help you learn more about alternative ways to parent and discipline.

For anyone, Christian or not, who wants to learn more about alternative philosophies of discipline and parenting, I recommend the following books:"

.....

Annie said...

Well I personally think spanking is wrong, but I wouldn't say that the Bible specifically prohibits it. The purpose of my post was to point out that many Christians believe, with much support IMO, that the Bible doesn't command parents to spank their children.

As far as how that authority or discipline is manifested for a mobile 2 year old, I will again recommend the two books at the end of that post, Unconditional Parenting and Playful Parenting. The first is more about parenting philosophy and the second offers a lot of examples from the authors life experience as both a father and a play therapist. If you are looking for concrete suggestions and examples, I would definitely say to look at Playful Parenting first. Unconditional Parenting does tend to leave you with a feeling of what you shouldn't be doing without offering a lot of specific "how to".

Also, I have been thinking a lot lately (partly because of last week's sermon and because of the book I am currently reading called Grace-Based Parenting) about what the Bible does say about how to parent our children. So perhaps my personal views on the specifics of that will come up in a future post. I only have the time to do so much in each post! :)

Honestly though, I don't think the bible gives a lot of specific guidelines as far as parenting, such as you must do this and never do that. What it does gives us is an example of how Jesus treated those around him, how he talked about children, how God treats us as his children, etc. There are a few verses that tell fathers not to exasperate or embitter their children, but it doesn't recommend spankings or timeout or some other form of discipline or punishment.

I do think grace is key to all of our relationships though, whether it is between me and God, my husband and I, or our children and us as parents, etc. I think there is a lot to approaching situations with love and grace and truth and doing so gently. Jesus was sometimes harsh with the Pharisees and the NT talks about how teachers will be held to a higher standard. With sinners he accepted them with open arms and did not condemn them. I would like to approach my children the same way.

Another thing, I want to teach my children to make right decisions--not teach them to obey out of fear or respect or obedience or whatever. Of course, I do want them to respect me, but I personally think that comes naturally when I treat them with respect just like I try to treat anyone else. I think things like spanking or timeout can get children to obey (when someone is watching anyway), but I have to wonder why they are following the rules.

No matter what we do, our children will make mistakes. I believe my job is a parent is to help them learn how to choose the right thing on their own, not give them a list of my rules and make them obey them out of some kind of coercion.

Annie said...

I was looking back and I don't think I addressed the part about explaining away a verse that has some meaning. I truly didn't meant to just dismiss this verse as if it means nothing. All parts of the Bible are important whether they are literal, figurative, poetry, whatever.

I am going to quote someone else who explains it better than I can what I think this verse is saying (and other verses that are similar, like Proverbs 23:13-14):
"Remembering that the shebet is the staff of authority, in King Solomon’s case the King’s scepter, we are free to read this passage as being about true discipline. Reason together and teach correct ways to your son. Let your staff of authority be a constant presence in their lives and you will teach him the way that does not lead to death. Be a constant presence of discipline and teaching in his life and you will save him from his passions that would lead to death.

The idea of your authority causing you to be a constant presence in your child’s life is not new to the topic of discipline in Scripture. When God gave the Torah/Law to the Israelites, he admonished them to “teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.” Deut. 6:7. This is the responsibility given to every Israelite parent and one’s authority is to exercise your responsibilities."
http://aolff.com/?page_id=9&page=3

(As an aside, if you go to Quick Reference on that site, she also has a list of articles that deal with real-life examples about discipline as well)

I think a lot of people associate parental authority and discipline with punishment, but it doesn't have to be that way. You can have parental authority and discipline your children without spanking them or sending them to time out or any other form of punishment. In fact, in Unconditional Parenting he also suggest forgoing rewards (now that is a change of mindset, a very challenging part of his book!).

I think a lot of discipline is teaching and guiding are children before something happens. I try to avoid situations that will set Josh off and teach him healthy ways to deal with his emotions or frustrations. My goal isn't just to get him to stop biting me when he is mad, my goal is to teach him that when he is mad or frustrated there are better ways to express that emotion without hurting another person. Yes, I want him to stop that behavior, but more importantly I want him to learn how to deal with those feelings, to use self-control, and to find other healthy methods of release. If I were to spank him whenever he bit me (or someone else) he might stop biting (at least if he knew I was around), but it wouldn't teach him how to express his anger or frustration. It wouldn't teach him how to deal with the situation that is upsetting him.

I think we often focus on the child's behavior, but it is very important to look at what is behind the behavior. Children don't "misbehave" or do "bad" things because they are trying to tick us off or they want to hurt people or they like being bad, they do these things because they don't know any other way to deal with what is going on around them and inside of them. If we can resolve those other problems, we will not only help our child's heart and mind, but we will also see those other behaviors come to an end.

It doesn't happen overnight or anything. It's a learning and growing process and I'm sure there will always be times when a child will lose control no matter how diligent we have been about teaching and guiding them to do otherwise, but even as adults we lose control and behave in ways that aren't appropriate or kind or loving. If Lyle were to slap me every time I snapped at him when I was angry, we wouldn't be married for long. Fortunately, I have a husband who is willing to discuss these things with me and help me learn better ways to deal with my emotions and betters ways we can work together to have a peaceful home.

Lyle said...

Yea, why is it I can hit my kid when he misbehaves but I can't hit my wife when she misbehaves? Don't I have Biblical authority over both of them?

(Don't worry Annie, I'm not about to start swatting you evertime I think you do something wrong). :)

Mr. & Mrs. Commish said...

Annie, you make great points and your heart is beautiful in relation to the goals of raising children. I would contend that you can reach all of the goals you mentioned as far as raising children to do things for correct motives, and have hand slapping or spanking be part of the methodology. I find nothing unbiblical in using these methods (up to an appropriate age) and because I may spank my child does not mean that I do not have the same goals in raising my child as you have mentioned (instruction in the heart rather than pure behavioral obedience). I just believe that at a young age certain punishments are more effective in conveying that certain actions are wrong (and perhaps more importantly at that age, dangerous). Also, at least in our home, spanking does not take the place of a "heart to heart". A spanking is always followed by a discussion of what was wrong, apologies, forgiveness and prayer. I would be more than happy to hear some other suggestions on punishments for the youngsters (although admittedly am not going to take the time to go read a book). So hopefully in a future post you can share some thoughts on that. I appreciate the blog and hope that it continue to be a place to discuss our differences in opinion all with a goal towards being as Christ-like as we can...

As to the point about hitting a wife as opposed to spanking a youngster. Not sure how you view biblical authority over your wife, but I hardly view it as the same as biblical authority over your children, and thus not sure it would be your place to ever be disciplining your wife? If you do, not sure how to go on from there, since I would disagree with that and the whole issue of spanking and "sparing the rod" is one of discipline.

Annie said...

Just curious, up to what age do you feel spanking is appropriate? What age do you think it is appropriate to begin? I've just heard huge differences in how Christians view that so I'm interested to see where you stand on that.

As far as spanking (or other punishments) being more effective for certain ages, I would have to ask if you have tried a wide variety of methods. Spanking might be effective for your particular child at a certain age, but that doesn't mean if you had tried another method that it wouldn't have been as effective. In fact, if you haven't tried something else, for all you know it has been more effective.

Look up some studies on the effectiveness of spanking. The only modern parenting experts I can find that support spanking are Christian authors/groups (and I personally think this is because so many Christians think spanking is biblically mandated and we MUST do it).

This study found that, "The two largest effect sizes (strongest associations) were immediate compliance by the child and physical abuse of the child by the parent." http://www.apa.org/releases/spanking.html

That doesn't mean that every parent who spanks will cross the line into abuse or that every parent who spanks only gets immediate compliance, but I think it is telling. I think spanking is effective as far as getting immediate compliance or even preventing the "bad" behavior when the parent is around, but I think it is very poor as far as preventing behavior or getting children to make the right choice on their own. Also, the fact that physical abuse is such a huge problem today and using spanking as a regular form of discipline can lead to that for some people is a huge reason why I would never advocate spanking or suggest that someone else spank their children. You never know who might have an anger or aggression issue or who might not be able to stop themselves from spanking over and over. The Bible doesn't set forth guidelines about how often we should spank, what ages, what part of the body, with what implement, etc. I'm not saying there is never anything in our faith that is not expressly described in the Bible, but it is particularly troublesome for the spanking issue since you have some people like the Pearls who advocate spanking a 4 month old with a flexible rod while others like Dobson say that only the very strong willed child would ever need to be spanked at 18months at the very earliest and most children not until they are 2. I think the risk and potential of crossing the line is so great that it is not worth teaching or promoting spanking even if I thought it was effective or okay to do when used correctly. I know that just because some people use something incorrectly it doesn't mean that we should never use it correctly, but when it comes to abuse of children I'd rather be safe than sorry.

As far as disciplining your wife, no, we don't hold the view that it is Lyle's place to discipline or punish me. But, biblically he does have some level of authority over me. Also, church leaders have authority and even authority to discipline other believers, yet we would be horrified if they used physical discipline.

I find it sad that we would use our position over our children to treat them in ways that we would never treat another person. If I were to slap any other person, even another person's child, I could be charged with assault. It's sad that children, who are most vulnerable, are offered the least amount of protection by our law.

I know that the Bible does not specifically prohibit spanking, but there are a lot of things that the Bible doesn't specifically prohibit that we would probably all agree are wrong. For example, slavery, and the Bible even sets forth guidelines for slavery.

The fact is, there are only a handful of verses in Proverbs that can even remotely be linked to spanking. If we really took them literally we would actually be hitting our children with a large stick, not swatting a hand or using a wooden spoon. Also, there are other OT passages concerning punishments and our children (like the one I mentioned in Deut about stoning a son) that we do not follow, why do we cling to these verses to say that spanking is okay? There are so many OT laws that we don't follow at all, how do we decide which ones we must still follow? The NT definitely has nothing that even remotely suggests striking a child in any way for discipline. The support for spanking is sketchy at best, and it is certainly not commanded (which is something that I have recently run across in Christian circles). When it comes to my child I just don't understand why I would use this method with my own children, let alone suggest others use it, when the biblical support for it is sketchy, it is not a command, and it's effectiveness for doing more than immediate compliance is limited.

Annie said...

I just wanted to post some more info on the effectiveness of spanking:

"While spanking may relieve a parent's frustration and stop misbehavior briefly, according to the American Academy of Pediatrics (1995), researchers suggest that spanking may be the least effective discipline method. To test this hypothesis, researchers surveyed parents, with the assumption that if spanking worked, children who were spanked would learn to behave better over time so that they would need punishing less frequently (Leach, 1996). However, the results showed that families who start spanking before their children are a year old are just as likely to spank their 4-year-old children as often as families who do not start spanking until later. Thus, children appear not to be learning the lessons parents are trying to teach by spanking.

Spanking may be ineffective because it does not teach an alternative behavior (American Academy of Pediatrics, 1995). In fact, children usually feel resentful, humiliated, and helpless after being spanked (Samalin & Whitney, 1995). The primary lesson they learn appears to be that they should try harder not to get caught.

Spanking also sends the wrong message to children (Samalin & Whitney, 1995). Spanking communicates that hitting is an acceptable way to solve problems, and that it is all right for a big person to strike a smaller one. In addition, when children are spanked, they may know that they have done something wrong, but in many cases, they are too young to understand the lesson. It is a very difficult message for any adult or child to understand: "I hurt you because I don't want you hurt."

Finally, when spanking is the primary discipline method used, it may have some potentially harmful long-term effects such as increasing the chances of misbehavior, aggression, violent or criminal behavior; impaired learning; and depression (Straus, 1995). "
http://www.parentingweb.com/discipline/spankdebate.htm

Gershoff surveyed 300+ studies over a period of 60+ years and found the following variables associated with spanking:
"• Immediate Compliance
She found that CP is associated with increased immediate compliance. Copied from the web.

• Moral Internalization
She found that CP decreases internalization of moral rules. This is concerning in that parents are more likely to use corporal punishment when they believe the child is at fault for some misbehavior. Thus, using a method that decreases moral internalization to respond to a failure to adhere to internal rules the child should have known is likely to perpetuate the problem.

• Aggression
She found that CP is associated with increased aggression. This is especially troublesome, she notes, in that parents are more likely to use aggression to stop aggression. However, one study showed that use of corporal punishment to halt aggression increased risk for aggressive behaviors by 50%, regardless of whether the parent or the teacher rated the child's behavior. Use of aggression after being physically punished for aggressive behavior is likely to be seen as an escalation of misbehavior, which was also associated with greater use of corporal punishment. Thus, corporal punishment is likely to perpetuate the problem.

• Antisocial Behaviors
She found that CP is associated with increased antisocial behaviors. This was found most strongly for boys, and for children between the ages of 10 and 12. This is also troublesome as boys were more likely to be spanked, and if spanking increases antisocial behaviors, spanking to stop them is likely to perpetuate the problem. Gershoff iv fact did find that CP is associated with increased risk of adult criminal behavior.

• Quality of Parent-Child Relationship
She found that CP is associated with decreased quality of the parent-child relationship. This is more troublesome because most spankings happen between 5:00PM and bedtime, which comprises the majority of parent-child time together for most children. Spankings were also more likely to happen if the child's misbehavior placed them at some risk for harm, and protecting the child is part of the parent-child relationship. This is also more troublesome, as spanking can lead children to think that aggression is common in relationships with loved ones. Gershoff in fact did find that CP is associated with increased risk of victimization from abusive relationships in adulthood.

• Mental Health
She found that CP is associated with decreased mental health outcomes. This is concerning, as children ages 5 to 8 are most at risk for severe corporal punishment, ages at which significant emotional, social, and cognitive development happens.

• Adult Abusive Behavior
She found that CP is associated with increased adult abusive behavior. She reports studies have shown that 2/3s of abusive parent-child incidents begin as an effort to discipline the child and "teach them a lesson." If this means that adult antisocial behavior is more likely after being spanked as a child, given that other research shows antisocial parents are at greater risk to abuse children, then this could mean that spanking one's child may increase the risk of abuse for one's grandchildren."

http://www.psychpage.com/family/library/disc.html

Of course, there are limitations and problems with these studies and the way people spank is so varied it is difficult to come to a firm conclusion. Also, a correlation between spanking and something else does not mean that every child who is spanked will experience that particular variable.

But, I do think these studies show that at the very least spanking is not very effective and it may have negative effects. In light of that, we should try to find other methods that are more effective and unlikely to have these kinds of negative associations.

And on your suggestion, I do hope to write up a post in the near future about alternatives.

Mr. & Mrs. Commish said...

Age we began, mobility, whenver that may be. Let me be very specific, we were not spanking our 9 mo. (? my wife remembers when all the things like first crawling and stuff take place) old. It was hand slapping. This was used to teach our child where danger was and the need to stay away from danger. We found it to be very effective both when we were around and when we were not around. (Perhaps we are just fortunate, but in our experience, the whole obedience only when parents are present thing has not been the case). We started spanking when a hand slap with the force we were using was not causing pain. If we were to have continued hand slapping it would have been at a force that could have been abusive. As for appropriate age to stop, I don't know for sure yet. I remember when I was growing up, the biggest mistake I made was skipping away from my father the last time I got spanked. As I left the room, my father said something to the effect of, "That's the last time I'm spanking you." Doh! In other words, there is a point when to induce pain would be to apply too much force. I'm sure it varies from child to child. I would guess somewhere between the ages of 5-8 (?). But like I said, not having had a child grow all the way up I'm not sure yet.

We have tried other methods (or another method), namely, the "time-out". In our experience this has not been as effective as our child doesn't seem to view this as much of a punishment at all (she has an incredible ability to amuse herself in all situations). Frankly, I'm a bit at a loss for ideas beyond this (part of the reason I was looking for other thoughts). Oh and at least in the case of food, there is the you don't get dessert if you misbehave at the table or don't eat your regular meal. In that context that is quite an effective punishment as our toddler loves ice cream.

To address another issue, don't misunderstand me, I do agree that the husband has authority over the wife. I'm far more conservative than most on this issue. I just think that there are two different relationships. The one between a husband and his wife involves exortation, guidance, washing with the Word, etc. The one with the children involves all this as well as training and discipline. So in my mind comparing the two and saying I shouldn't spank my wife and thus I shouldn't spank my kids is an invalid argument, since your role with your wife is different than the role with your children.

I would be very surprised if there was something in the Bible that says we should spank our children (so I'm not in that group). However, this does not mean that it is not a perfectly acceptable method to accomplish some of the commands that there are in relation to our children and training them up. From my own experience, both growing up myself and now raising a youngster it seems to be a very effective method (when combined with the grace that Annie has emphasized) of raising a child in the Lord.

And as Annie points out, those studies should all be taken with a grain of salt for a variety of reasons. I'll point out the major one though, being that they are not exclusively Christian studies (not that you could ever define that in a satisfactory way for anyone anyway). The point is, it wouldn't surprise me one bit if spanking your child if done in a sinful manner (which the non-Christian would seem especially prone to), would lead to all sort of potential problems with the child. Although done in a correct manner, you would have a hard time finding a study that would take all appropriate variables into account, I find no reason to suspect that spanking would not cause all of these issues.

Annie said...

About the husband/wife relationships vs. the parent/child relationship--Even as husband and wife we teach and guide each other. It's definitely more mutual than it is with a child (although children can teach us a lot too). And while I don't think it's part of the h/w relationship to discipline each other in the sense of punishment, I do think they should gently bring each other to repentance just like we would with any other brother and sister in Christ. To me that is a form of discipline, just as a church leader would discipline a member of the church by trying to encourage them toward repentance. Of course all of these relationships aren't the same, but they do have similarities.

I think a big thing is a different view of what discipline is. I really believe that discipline and punishment are two different things and discipline can occur without punishment (and punishment can occur without discipline as well).

I'm also not saying spanking is never effective. It is effective at some things and with some children. But even if it was effective with every child and even if the Bible doesn't specifically say it's not okay, that does not mean it is okay. There are many issues the bible does not address, or even issues like slavery that the bible addresses and does not condemn, but I think most of us today would condemn the practice of slavery (I'm not saying spanking=slavery, just using it as an example of something that is not outright condemned in scripture yet most xians today would oppose the practice and say it is morally wrong).

I know this is something every parent will just have to decide for themself and I do not expect to change the minds of Christian parents who believe they should spank or that it works for their family or that it is okay with God. I do recognize that my disapproval of spanking is my own opinion. Part of it comes from the attitude that Jesus has about children in the NT, part of it comes from scriptures about relationships in general, and part of it also comes from the world around me and what I see happening with children.

One thing that really gets to me is when I see a parent tell their child not to hit, and then they spank them. Most of us would agree that it is not right for our children to hit other children, or to hit us. Yet it is a big contradiction to use hitting in order to teach a child not to hit. And even if you never use spanking to discipline that particular action, the child will still get the message that for some reason it is okay for mom/dad to hit me, but not okay for me to hit anyone, or anyone else to hit someone.

As far as the studies not being comprised of Christian groups. I have to disagree that a non-Christian would be especially prone to spanking in a sinful manner. Christian parents spank out of anger all the time, many of them use excessive force or objects that are clearly abusive (in my mind). In fact, there are quite a few Christian ministries and authors that have instruction on spanking that I definitely think crosses into clearly sinful territory (The Pearls which I've discussed several times being one of them). And if there are Christians writing those things, you'd better believe there are even more Christians practicing them (and for the first time I have met some IRL in the last few months and was very shocked to find that people really do these things).

This is one of those areas where I personally believe Christians need to hold themselves to a higher standard. Even if I could comfortably say that spanking can be used appropriately (and I don't really think that) in some instances, there are so many people, Christian and non-Christian, that use it inappropriately that it gives me enough reason to avoid the practice myself. If I want my parenting to be an example to others, I wouldn't want another parent to see me spank my child and then think, "Oh, if she's doing it maybe I should be doing that, it looks like it works," and then go on to spank in ways that would be wrong (or look up info about it and find one of these teachers that is advocating really horrible forms of spanking).

Also, I think we agreed before that it is definitely wrong to spank in anger. Maybe there are other people out there who are way more patient and calm than me, but I have a hard time believing that anyone can use spanking as a regular form of discipline and never ever spank out of anger. Anger isn't always a rage, anger can be calm and collected and even calculated. And I imagine especially when you are dealing with several kids at once how trying it must be (I have a hard enough time with one toddler). I know that for myself, there is no way I would be able to spank regularly and never make that mistake.

Honestly, I don't even think making rules such as waiting x amount of time before you spank, or discussing it or praying about it always erase that anger (and also, the longer you wait before administering that spanking the more ineffective it will be, especially with young children who will have trouble connecting the spanking with an earlier event).

One thing Lyle and I have discussed is that the times when we do get upset or frustrated or angry with Josh have more to do with our own attitude, mood, or events of the day than to do with Josh's behavior. He can do something 10 times one day and I am able to deal with it patiently, but on another day that for whatever reason I am tired and cranky or something else horrible has happened, he can do that same thing one time and I want to snap at him.

I think a big part in changing the way we discipline (which for us has been moving away from punishment altogether and definitely no spanking) has been to focus more on our own behaviors than his behaviors (and also to look at what is going on behind his behavior). I relate it to taking the log out of my own eye instead of focusing on the speck in his. When Josh does something that bothers me or upsets me or something that he knows he shouldn't do, I try to focus on my reaction and not as much on what he has done wrong--after all I am the adult and should be able to step back from the situation when I deal with it. Especially at this young age, even if Josh knows he shouldn't do something, that doesn't mean he has the impulse control to stop himself from doing it again, and even when he does, that doesn't mean he understands why he shouldn't do something. I think sometimes doing something he knows he shouldn't is part of how he learns--he wants to know why it bothers daddy so much when he bites him, so he's going to sneak up on him and do it and see what happens. Toddlers learn that way for many things, it's just when it is something a parent doesn't like or a parent thinks he shouldn't do that it becomes an issue for punishment. But for a toddler, biting his dad on the leg and biting the couch or the cat or breaking his crayons in half may not be all that different.

It doesn't make sense for me to punish for that because it's like punishing him for learning. Sure, I would like him to learn in a different way and I would like to teach him not to do that again, but I don't think it makes sense to punish a toddler for doing something that is developmentally appropriate. Toddlers learn by exploring, touching, moving, etc. That doesn't mean I just let him do whatever he wants and just let him gnaw on my leg no matter how much it hurts, but it does mean that I try to teach him different behavior without punishing him for the behavior I wasn't enjoying so much.

This is definitely a different way of thinking and I haven't been able to explain it thoroughly here at all. It is a change away from thinking that I can or should control my children and that they should be obedient to me. As Kohn says in Unconditional Parenting, instead of asking "How do I get my child to do what I say?" we ask, "What does my child need and how can I meet those needs?" It means taking a child seriously and recognizing that they are people with thoughts, feelings, opinions, and preferences. That does not mean they always get what they want, but their preferences can be considered instead of just dismissed. Their emotions can be validated instead of punishing them as if it was wrong for them to be upset.

I know you said you weren't going to read a book on this, but it is really far more than I can explain in a few blog posts/comments. If you were to read one chapter of Unconditional Parenting, read chapter 7 Principles of Unconditional Parenting. I know that for Lyle that was the pivotal chapter that changed his mind from "this Alfie Kohn guy is crazy and this book is just ridiculous and I don't even know why I am reading it" to, "OH, I get it!" (Lyle was a lot more hesitant than me about the current views we have on discipline).

And again, even if you are going to use spanking, Playful Parenting will give you so many other ways to deal with your children and just to play and enjoy them. Even for those who believe spanking is fine and effective, that doesn't mean it should be the only method of discipline in your repertoire. Especially when you are in a situation where you may not want to spank (say if you are in public and you don't want to be the parent dragging the kid off to the bathroom or having to settle for waiting until you get home), there are things you can do to help work through problem situations.

I will try to post more on actual examples later, but I have actually lent out my copy of Playful Parenting so it will be mostly from our own experiences and what I can remember off hand. He explains things so much more beautifully and thoroughly than I could.

Kris said...

Well said Aurelia Ann! I enjoyed this post very much. I didn't know about that "spoil the rod , spare the child" was from a poem about sexual spankings. Blah!
I 100% , wholeheartedly agree with your posting. Thanks for taking the time to do it!

spiritsong said...

I found the studies that show the negative effects of spanking to be quite compelling.
I cannot recall one account of a child being struck, spanked, lashed, or beaten in the Bible. On the contrary, we are to love others and treat them with respect.
Our children are to be cherished and taught (discipled) by us.
Ephesians 6:4,
"And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord."